Twitter is a good place to avoid today for Leeds fans – or indeed for anyone whose idea of good taste precludes taunting rival supporters over two bloody murders thirteen years ago. Millwall fans are generally the exception to the rules of taste though, as they are to most rules – not excluding those governing grammar, basic hygiene and indeed evolution.
It’s not hard to find Millwall fans on Twitter today. Those of this dismal fraternity who are able to find their way around a computer are there in the ether, in force, to celebrate the first of Millwall’s two cup finals this season. Their team face Leeds United, the cause of all those chips on rival fans’ shoulders everywhere. The effect is accentuated with Millwall fans, for whom the chip on the shoulder invariably possesses a higher IQ than the diseased organ inside the skull.
It’s pointless to regale you here with the output of the South Bermondsey twitterati. It’s all there, for those who might want to source it. Hashtag #sickeningbile might be a useful route to go. Strong stomachs are required; this is no place for the queasy. Youngsters who weren’t even born when Chris Loftus and Kevin Speight met their awful fate in Taksim Square Istanbul, are gleefully evident, aping their elders, glorying in the blood spilled by two lads who went overseas to watch a football match – and never came home.
Most football clubs suffer from a minority of this sort, people who genuinely seek approval for dragging their very souls through the gutter as they seek to out-do each other in aiming jibes at the misfortunes of others. It’s been a blight on football for over 50 years, certainly since the time of the Munich Air Disaster. Man U fans are only too well aware of the fashion down the years for tasteless chants and songs on that sad subject. My own Leeds United have shameful form for it; Liverpool too and various other clubs. Man U fans will climb on their high horse a few times every year over this, but they are not without sin, reveling in their own sick celebration over Hillsborough and Istanbul, plumbing the depths over the Heysel tragedy. It’s hard to find a club that doesn’t attract a lunatic fringe of this kind of “support” – but it’s usually a minority and it’s been greatly reduced in recent years. Only Millwall buck this trend. There it’s most of them, most of the time. There, civilised behaviour and rules of taste and respect seemingly don’t apply.
Millwall fans, rather than condemning the examples of pond-life in their midst, tend to glory in them. “No-one likes us, we don’t care” they sing defiantly, happy with their grisly reputation, proud of a record that would sicken a psychopath. They’re more famous of course for their tendency towards violence, usually in gangs of herd-instinct cowards seeking small groups of rival fans to attack. When none such are available, they will be content to fight among themselves and disgrace the game in this country that way. They had a set-to at Wembley last April in the FA Cup semi-final. Bewildered Wigan fans looked on as their team cruised to victory and the Millwall animals tore into each other like sharks drunk on blood. Images of crying children caught up between bloodied “adults” lacing into their own kind shocked and revolted the nation. As usual, nothing effective was done.
It’s about time, though, that something was done. Millwall is the land that time forgot, a throwback to an uglier era that the rest of the game is doing reasonably well in leaving behind. Only at Millwall does this anti-culture still flourish, by word and by deed. In Leeds, the old men of the sixties and seventies Service Crew sit around swapping stories on internet forums these days, their boots hung up for good. Even West Ham fans are emerging from their own savage past. Man U fans are too busy travelling up and down between Devon and the Theatre of Hollow Myths to engage in fisticuffs – they’re an aging population too.
The modern football fan is a relatively peaceful person, obsessed with the media fishbowl of the Premier League, horrified by the price of everything, as likely as not to be a student, or a female; a far cry from the working man’s army of previous decades. Not so at Millwall. Millwall defies evolution, laughs at progress, dismisses a family atmosphere as “soft”, spouts poison on the internet, looks for easy targets down scary back-alleys. Millwall is the past in defiance of the present and the future. Millwall should be consigned to that past, to the dustbin of football history – and their shrinking legion of “fans” left to lob half-bricks at each other.
It’s high time to get rid of Millwall.
PS – see below for the evidence of one Millwall cretin glorying in his following the Twitter account of Turkish murderer Ali Umit Demir. Disgusting – but we shouldn’t apply normal human standards to some Millwall apes.
As a leeds fan i cringe every time you post articles preaching about “horrible” Millwall fans…..unfortunately it smacks of hypocrisy. Though i cant stand the REAL thugs / meat heads as much as the next fan our own fans are hardly sweetness and light are they ?? Your simply generalizing all Millwall fans in the same way other people conveniently portray Leeds fans….. People love someone to hate and to look down upon and its something that increases in tribal sports. Most people like to look down on Leeds but I see you have latched on to Millwall ???
I despair sometimes at how very limited some people are. If you read the article, instead of just the headline and then going into your self-indulgent cringe, you’d see that I have acknowledged other clubs’ sins in this regard, including Leeds. But no, you’d rather just knee-jerk yourself into a complacent stupor. I wish you joy of it.
PS – I genuinely doubt that you ARE a Leeds fan – but I’d be mildly interested to know what your true agenda is. You’re pretty transparent anyway though, so it hardly matters.
Lol you doubt im a leeds fan because i have an opinion that doesnt conform to what you view as the majority ?? So do all leeds fans have to think the same way as you then ?! Now moving away from personal insults…. at the end of your article you state “Millwall should be consigned to that past, to the dustbin of football history – and their shrinking legion of “fans” left to lob half-bricks at each other.” its pretty obvious how you feel about Millwall and im simply pointing out thats mirrored by other fans about Leeds. You should know that and I would hope that some fans will appreciate the similarities enough to try and steer clear of making sweeping generalizations about other fans BECAUSE its done to us !!! Can your limited IQ encompass that ??
I see I got under your thin skin, which is easier than penetrating your thick skull. Last word here before I write you off as spam – you haven’t read it properly. It’s not about what I feel for Millwall versus what other fans feel for Leeds. Only a cretin would deduce that. Read it properly, or have someone read it to you, slowly and clearly.
Just reading you comments and would like to ask one question. Do you find you own supporters singing how proud they are that Jimmy Saville abused children and mocking the Munich air disaster just as distasteful ? I would be interested if you have ever been to a game or do you sit at home watching homogenous football served up by Murdoch and his bitch the Premier League every week. Assume you are equally offended by the so called Premier League players that bite, dive, sulk and undermine their managers every day because being paid £100k per week makes them above the law? Before you ask, no I am not a Leeds fan, I am Millwall and was at the game yesterday and as already mentioned the Leeds fans seemed very pleased with Mr Saville and the pilot of the Munich plane. And believe me, they were very vociferous in their opinions on the aforementioned. I am sure you will reply with a very witty post to me and all Millwall fans about being “stuck in the past” and you might be right. However, next time you start bemoaning lack of passion and attendance within the championship, just remember it started when Sky took control and people like you forgot what an atmosphere is like.
Brian – why not read the bloody article. It’s all in there – our own sins and those of others. Why do you people go off at half-cock without full knowledge of what’s gone before? Just makes you look bloody silly
Den of Lions well to me who cares here, rivalry for who? My rivalry since 1960s is and will be scum,gunners,pool this millwall thing okay for the generation of Simon Grayson.
But enjoy the ride this Saturday when we we are back in frame…
Come on EV…. Those Millwall meatheads fight each other
We’ve just had our first Millwall supporter, defending his club’s honour by gently pointing out he hopes I’m at the match and that I get bricked.
Sigh. I’ll just give ’em the rope and let ’em hang themselves then shall I. But I’m not giving a platform for Millwall low-lifes.
Rob, your article today has provoked the unexpected consequence of your slightly internecine spat with Ev, where deep down your thoughts on thuggish football behaviour probably aren’t that far apart. I believe there is a comparison between the two clubs fans although its the Leeds of the past versus the Millwall of the present – a bit like would Revie’s boys beat the current PL champions (whoever they may be). Leeds used to attract supporters who wanted a bit of the reflected ‘glory’, if that’s the right term, by being associated with the baddest boys on the block, and yes in the 70’s I indulged in the Munich chanting etc much to my adult shame but I was only in my early teens and have grown up. The minorities do still exist – look no further than that clown who ran onto the pitch at Hillsboro, however at Millwall it remains more than a minority and is something of a dynastic succession where 40 something men hold their young sons aloft imploring them to “slit his fackin froat for im” or some such nonsense. There is only one club where this behaviour is revelled in and quickly swept under the carpet by the authorities and that is I’m afraid Millwall. Consign them to the dustbin of history? – No. Deny them the chance to peddle their filth by closing the Den for matches – yes.
Fair comment, and a fair take on what I was trying to say.
Must confess I’m amazed at the sanctimonious few who have tried to comment with a view to defending the Millwall animals, and not a thought for anyone who might be offended and upset by the continual references on Twitter and elsewhere to the murders in Istanbul. If these would-be contributors really are Leeds fans – as they claim – then it’s a pretty warped agenda they’re pursuing. But I suspect they’re not real Leeds fans, and that’s why they don’t appear here.
P.S. The question of would Revie’s boys win does not need an answer!!!
I think it would be close – maybe 2-1. But you have to remember that the Revie team are in their 70’s now!
Yeh but we have to give ‘them’ a chance.
One of the best comments I have ever read.
I deplore the comments about the Istanbul victims but you are generalising, all Millwall fans aren’t thugs or animals. Leeds fans , rightly , were offended last season when Dave Jones called us all animals because some Leeds fans called him names and one ran on the field and hit Kirkland. We aren’t all animals so of course he was criticized and rightly so. Now here you are generalising about Millwall fans. I was at Elland Road on the day of the tribute to Gary Speed when his widow was there. The Millwall fans were unbelievable that day. Let’s get football support away from hate. Condemn the thugs on Twitter as we all would but don’t say that ALL Millwall fans are the same. Condemn those doing it, not everyone
I said “most”, not “all”. But I take your point. It’s most likely just a far bigger minority at Millwall than at civilised football clubs.
Well, no, you didn’t say “most”. You are most certainly tarring *all* Millwall with the same brush. The only time you used “most” was in reference to football clubs. Please amend your copy accordingly. Also, I would suggest that (while I do not participate in the Turkish chants myself) if you are offended by bad taste, you refrain from going to places where bad taste is frequently used, such as football matches, comedy clubs, and The Internets. Seriously, when did people start getting offended so much by words?
It’s high time to get rid of words.
It’s high time you got off your high horse, James. I will not be amending my copy at the behest of somebody with such juvenile opinions, and I’m getting a bit sick of Millwall morons and their “yeah well we do it but them uvvers do it too, innit” attitude. The sickening outpouring on Twitter yesterday was unacceptable. The bile pouring out of the stands yesterday, and the complacent inaction of the match-day staff were likewise unacceptable. It’s time something were done about the zit on the arse of football that Millwall FC undoubtedly are.
I would say your comments are more than reasonable, I am 44 and I have followed Leeds for (well 44 years) – I have had a Season Ticket since the age of 18 in the KOP (N9 as now) and went with my Dad before that from an early age (being crushed in the Boys Pen was an early memory!). I also spent a decade of home and away every season (the last time we were crap!). I do my best to take in 5-10 away games as well now……… Moving on I would like to say I have had the benefit (if thats what you call it) of making the trip to Millwall on three occasions (twice at the Old Den (Cold Blow Lane) and once at the New Den, so I can give an accurate view point. I hate coach trips so historically I use the train….. (possibly the main mistake for a trip to Millwall).. the only change at Millwall is the stadium the rest is just the same (and as you described) – The fact that your last (safe) drink has to be at London Bridge station gives you an idea of what your about to put yourself through when you go to Millwall – Balloons full of p**s flying past you (if your lucky) seemed ( and seems) to be a favourite, but thats acceptable compared to the alternative options they employ.
In the 80’s (especially) the away days at our more minor Yorkshire rivals, I dont think Leeds fans were any better.. As you say though time moves on – it is actually possible to enjoy a day at the football with your kids, I had that in mind when I went to the New Den (they must have improved) – no chance! They do it in their own back yard only, thats why they only bring 150 to Leeds.
For all the sickening Turkey related chants what really summed them up was that girl crying at Wembley – I think most low life idiots would have drawn the line seeing a child in that state – but not Millwall they just continued round the poor kid. It seems all the more uglier when some of them seem to be in their 40’s and 50’s (their kids have no chance really) – their comes a time when you have to grow up.
I think the football authorities need to smell the coffee, they seem to use the Premiership as the beacon for english football, but seem to turned a blind eye to whats going wrong. Football violence is starting to rear its ugly head again (not just Millwall), there seems to be some incident or other every week and before long we will get a Luton v Millwall (or for that matter a Birmingham v Leeds) situation, and it will be back to the 80’s then.
You just know what your going to read about in the papers tomorrow (possible worse tonight if they let any more idiots run unchecked across the pitch) . Will they get their ground closed for a couple of match (No) if they acted like they do in and around their ground anywhere else in public they would be hauled in before a court (so why do they get away with that).
Best option for Leeds United is promotion and we will never have to come across them again.
As you can tell by the time of this post I am not going to Millwall again and I doubt I ever will – its the only club I can say that about.
I have to say your continual articles on us Millwall animals do make me chuckle.
I would be more than happy to pay your entrance fee for a few games per season at The Den and away games to enable you to get amore balanced view for your endless repetitve dribble.
For the record us knuckle dragging throw back to the 80’s savages donate thousands of pounds every home game to various charities who collect outside the ground, we donate food to local foodbanks for people that struggle in the local area.
I am 3rd generation Millwall fan who as been going since 1985. Millwall is my local club and I would never support another team. Yes we do have a long history of crowd trouble and were made to play behind closed doors on numerous occasions in the 1930’s.
The scenes at Wembley were both disgraceful and embarrasing and although it does not excuse what happened, if the police dealt with the issue when requested to do so by Millwall fans some 10 minutes before it kicked-off the incident would never have occured.
Even though evolution apparently passed me by, I own a very successful business. As soon as the topic of football comes up with my clients I have to endure the sort of generalisations you like to continually express in your articles.
Will I stop supporting my club? Never!!!!!
No doubt after todays 2-0 defeat against my pond life club you will proberly continue you keyboard warrior crusade for the foreseeable future.
Keep the hate mate I love reading your articles.
Touché. A cracking response from an evident non knuckle-dragger. You should see some of the bile I have had though…
We all have to accept that there are all walks of life in every corner. As a Leeds fan, I have seen the very worst from both Leeds and Millwall fans on the terraces (and in seats) . At the same time I have had some very good old football conversations with Millwall fans. Let’s all move on and accept the world the way it sadly is.
Rob, I really enjoy your articles, but please put this subject to bed.
I seem to get plenty of so-called Leeds fans asking me to put this to bed – can’t seem to find any who’ll make the same polite request of the Millwall lowlife scum who keep on and on with the Turkish jibes. Odd, that. I find the priorities of some of you to be slightly arse about face, but if you all want to play the holier-than-thou benevolent creeps that’s a matter for you. On my blog I shall continue to call the Millwall scum precisely what they are.
I for one do not join in the Turkish chants. What happened to those two young men was awful and should never happen over a game of football.
Today at The Den hardly any reference was made to that terrible tragedy. Sadly it was sung by the individuals nearest the away fans and Leeds fans response of boring boring Millwall was a great response and put pay to the hidious chant.
The problem is (rightly or wrongly) if the press and individuals on social media keep highlighting the issue everytime our clubs play eachother, the minority who get off on these inappropriate chants will continue to do it.
I look forward to the day I never hear the chant again and hopefully that day is not to long away.
To continue calling us all scum though Rob is in some way making you look no better than the morans who like singing that chant.
Where was the word “all”?? I am calling the scum who get involved “scum” and I think that’s fair comment. I’d also say that at Millwall you have a rather larger minority than most clubs do, together with a higher incidence of unfortunate little set-to’s like the one in the Wembley semi last April. I’ve already acknowledged the worth of one Millwall respondent, and you’re evidently another whose head is screwed on rather than screwed up. To say I’m worse on account of my blog than the morons who take delight in poking fun at a bloody double murder though – I find that bizarre in the extreme.
This link casts further light on the events of today. My original article was written ahead of the game in response to the tide of filth and depravity on Twitter this morning – but the fact that there would be significant outbreaks at the game in the afternoon was, sadly, all too predictable. It’s a shame that Millwall FC in general, and its match day staff (stewards) in particular, have such a complacent and blasé attitude to crowd control at a club which hardly needs any further degradation of an already heavily stained reputation where its fans are concerned.
Get a grip! Your hatred of Millwall makes you insult Leeds fans who disagree with you like EV who was spot on. I’m a Millwall fan embarrassed by the Istanbul chants but these are sung by a minority in the context of the hooligan rivalry between our clubs. And yes their were a fair number of Leeds fans up for a fight today! A minority but let’s be honest both our clubs have them and they are long term committed supporters in most cases. Your comments are ill informed anti working class and you should get a job at the Daily Mail.
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That’s all very impassioned Ian, but it’s bollocks isn’t it? Just read through the undeniable facts. Your nasty little club produces bile and bother out of all proportion to its size and importance. You yourself are getting worked up, seeking to praise the Leeds fan whose agenda is palatable to you and bury the one whose recounting of facts and delivery of censure is not to your taste. If you don’t like what you read here, you know where the door is – use it and get on with your comfy denial of the disease which riddles your club.
Wow, you really have an obsession going on here!! Even your own fans who disagree with you are branded as ‘so called Leeds fans’. Yes thanks I’ll take the door and go now. You should have a lie down.
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I do like a graceful withdrawal and a tacit admission that there’s no further argument possible. It’s not very Millwall, but it is appreciated.
any comment on smoke bombs being let off and chants of “saville fucked your kids”. I know which one I would consider worse, I’d rather die than see that happen to my children.
So – let me get this right – you’re actually proposing a sliding morality scale here and concluding that delighting in the murder of two football fans is preferable to chants about a dead abuser. You infer that the Millwall fans have the moral high ground here. For desperation, this takes the biscuit. I’m very much afraid that you are a cretin.
Not impressed with being called a so called Leeds fan, sorry Rob.
If self-righteousness is the way forward so be it.
There is obvious evidence here that you find it hard to take in other peoples views and opinions, but mine here is rise above what is upsetting you and let’s discuss LUFC, otherwise your blog will be left with just people wanting to abuse you, rather than to discuss football. You could maybe even establish this as a sister site for the games gone crazy imbecile is you carry on….
I see what you did there. And it was crap.
You really are a sad individual , double standard comes to mind as per usual when it comes to leeds, gutter press rat as you are Leeds got beat by the better team and It could have been more , when will you and others realise Leeds are no longer a “great” club they like others live on history of many years gone by get over it , move on it’s for the best …… I won’t hold my breath on you allowing this post as my last one never made the cut …. But it will bring a smile to my face knowing you read it …. Cheers.
No one said we are a great club, you know we are a bigger club than you, and most though don’t you? When was the last time you took 3,500,5,000,or 6,600 away from home, like our last three away matches??? NEVER. Pipe down and get back to your crack den you sarrrrrf London melt
I think you are spot on Rob. Ive supported Leeds for 35 years, and have been through the 80’s and 90’s and to date. Ive been to the old Den and the new Den. In all the time following Leeds I have never seen them attack shirters or the like, Millwall fans cant say the same. They are jealous of our history and would love to have a support our size, the only way they can have a pop at us is through insults. If i could sing a song about a dodgy cockney criminals famous/non famous to Millwall fans, id never be able to stop singing ffs. Like Rob I do question some Leeds fans opinions on here, the same sort of tree huggers who probably think we should be drinking tea pre match and minding our Language
‘The only way to have a pop at us is through insults’ – straight after using insults on a reply and also using the word ‘melt’. Another football factory victim I see.
Nice to know that you’re a Leeds fan who occasionally writes for the Huf Po. I’m a Milllwall fan with two B.A.’s (both firsts), one M.A. (distinction), and one P.h.D who also happens to work for the club.I’m interested to hear that I low I.Q. and poor grammar. How did you work that out?
p.s. When your explianing could you please be careful with the prose style.You’re a touch wordy and cliched for my taste. (Man U fans in Devon. How startalingly original.)
Check out the spelling guys. O irony! Thou livest!!
It is interesting that 2 clubs with similar reputations tar each other with the same brush. Having been going for 21 years to Millwall these big incidents always happen when the hangers on turn up for the ‘big’ games. Every week home and away nothing happens but people ignore that for those moments when the kids who’ve watched too much football factory come along to cause problems. The semi final incident is something I assume is going to be the pointer for ‘look at them idiots’ example, however I would ask for you to think of how many genuine fans you think there really were at that game? Our average gate is 10k yet 30k more turned up for that semi final and people I will never see anywhere near our club ever again – or unless we ever get there again. I do echo the thoughts of the other Wall fan on here as well as that while not excusing it, the old bill took 15-20 mins before they decided to get involved. The fuse could have been put out way before the explosion.
On the same page from yesterday, it was Leeds fans who were sat outside the Southawk pub at London Bridge causing trouble to not just football fans but the general public, to the point the other pubs near it refused to serve Leeds fans anymore and after the game the staff said they were some of the worst fans they had the displeasure to serve. It was also your fans that walked into the game 10 mins late and spent most of the game watching the East upper stand aiming constant abuse and not even watching the events on the pitch, and then also set a flare off. I recall your fans in previous years singing songs about our fans getting stabbed in Hungry. (However in regards to these chants I feel is a grey area, the same way that you may tell a joke about 9/11, cancer etc or how some people find Frankie Boyle funny or vile – people will react differently to different subjects. As you said your fans sing songs about the crash though you seem to write it off as it is only a minority – I heard it loud and clear from most of the crowd when the cup game was live on tv, but I digress as I said I feel that is a grey area as the bounderies of taste have changed these days – it’s a generational thing I feel). You’re also the club that even though you make it as hard as possible for our fans to get to your ground, those who turn up are greeted with bottle / coin throwing, and when leaving are waiting in crowds to try and attack the few that can be arsed to travel to a petrol station to a ticket before going on. As someone that doesn’t drive and hates coaches I have given up going to your ground since last year.
All I am asking is that people look beyond their noses, I am sure you and your genuine fans felt depressed when that dickhead came on and attacked the Wednesday keeper before going back in the crowd and being congratulated by many of the fans in that crowd. ‘Typical Leeds scum’ was being banded about. Just like when my Walsall supporting friend informed me pre season how your fans smashed up the away end in a pre season friendly. I am sure if the press reported all the events that Leeds got up to you’d come across the same if not worse than us. Nearly every week I sit at grounds with no problems even drinking with other fans and their attitudes changed from what they perceived to what we are really like. I could take any club and give examples of when they are involved in a higher profile game and show how ‘bad’ their fans are. It is a shame that someone who obviously has a good ability to write has resorted to simple name calling and generalisations in the artical and on responses. I echo the thoughts of my fellow fan who offered to bring you along for a season. Or better yet read ‘Family’ by Michael Calvin for an insight into our club – I think you’d find it a great read.
Good luck for the rest of the season sir.
(P.s I couldn’t be arsed to go back and proof read this so apologise for spelling/grammatical errors.)
Rob – third generation Millwall supporter here, with a low IQ and a desire to cause the utmost offence and harm to whoever comes near me.
Or, I’m a university educated successful professional, who doesn’t participate in chants and singing at games if I find it distasteful, let alone look for trouble associated to the team and I support and the teams who play them.
I’ll let you make your mind up on that, since you’re clearly confident in your assertion that “There it’s most of them, most of the time. There, civilised behaviour and rules of taste and respect seemingly don’t apply.” Oh, look – you already have.
Now I’m not saying there’s a sliding moral scale of acceptability at play here, but surely you can see there’s hypocrisy in the small minded approach you’re taking to this, to the point of making yourself look silly?
But no, even though deep down you know that might be right, you can’t admit it – that would mean coming down from your self built pedestal, from a fabricated position of authority that you’ve seemingly created for yourself based on the fact that you apparently spend a large proportion of your time spouting your opinion online, without having the strength of character or confidence to admit when you might be off track.
I’m looking forward to seeing your response, which if you stay true to form will consist of an ill thought out rebuttal, or perhaps resorting to a bit of childish tit-for-tat or name calling, but just so you know, I won’t be responding back – and so we’re clear, it won’t be “a graceful withdrawal and a tacit admission that there’s no further argument possible” – it will be because you’re appallingly boorish in this particular matter, and I’ve got better things to do with my time than waste any more of it frantically typing my day away – I suggest you try something similar, might open your eyes a bit.
Thanks Dave, for showing that the worst form of attack is defensiveness. I love how you’re all so eager to parade your qualifications. This was my second favourite – topped only by the guy who told me he had two first-class BA (Hons) an MA Distinction and a PhD – and ended up calling me “startalingly” original. Wonderful!
I find this all very odd.
Millwall have a reputation. It is justified, but every incident is either blown out of proportion or reported on with total exaggeration.
Leeds have a reputation. This is also justified. For several decades United followers have carried out social atrocities no different to Millwall fans. This is also however blown out of proportion.
If people following Millwall shouted nasty things to Leeds followers yesterday, it is likely to be reciprocated at the return match. It is not something to be commented on. The more it is highlighted, the more people will be encouraged to ‘touch the wet paint’.
As for the article, a pot calling a kettle black is just embarrassing and hypocritical.
Another gross over-simplification, based upon a totally false premise. You Millwall fans seem to believe that if you talk bollocks loud enough, often enough, it will be accepted as true. It’s a variant of the “Big Lie” technique as practiced by Josef Goebbels during the rise of Nazism. Perhaps Herr Doktor Goebbels was a Millwall fan too. The thing is, it’s a question of degree. You glibly state that every incident is either blown out of proportion or exaggerated, and then attempt to draw parallels with the behaviour of Leeds fans over the years. But the facts suggest that many of the incidents involving Millwall fans, and the orchestrated outpouring of bile as evidenced yesterday, require no exaggeration and have a context all of their own. You all twist and turn like twisty-turny things in your efforts to convince anyone listening that Millwall are no different to other clubs. But they are, and not in a good way. Fighting among yourselves at Wembley amid frightened and crying children, terrified by the sight of spilled blood. Routine bricking of visiting coaches at the New Den and its smelly predecessor. Awful mass singing in celebration of the murder of English football fans abroad. And then the feeble, out-dated protests: oh well, you lot sing about Munich, or at least you used to. It’s not a pot calling the kettle black – how typically, outstandingly selective of you. It’s a representative of modern football support, having shed so many of its last-century demons, addressing fans of a club where that 20th century anti-culture is still embraced to the fullest, with nauseating results. Millwall sums up all that remains of the worst in football “support” and they really do need the book throwing at them,hard.
Ok where to begin.
Firstly i would like to point out that publishing photos of wanted people after they have been found and appeared in court is a criminal act, so i suggest you remove them before the police get involved (contempt of court act 1981 if you wish to look it up)
Secondly, glass houses. Just as many leeds fan sing a vile song about munich as millwall fans do about Istanbul.
Thirdly if youd care to check the stats on arrests for last season, youll see millwalls name well down the list, behind a certain Yorkshire club.
1) I’ll risk it. It was freely available on the net, and they’re probably all wanted again by now anyway.
2) Bollocks. Glib, groundless nonsense. Just not true and a mark of desperation for you to suggest it is.
3) Proportionally to the size of club, I think you’re up there. The arrest figures say just as much about the Police feeling that discretion is the better part of valour, as they do about the conduct of Millwall thugs, yobs, morons and cretins.
Hi, you weren’t well beaten two nil by any chance were you? Which could easily have been four. Ouch those grapes are well sour….And the hypocrisy of some of what you’re saying here regarding chants beggars belief. What do you sing to Man Utd fans then? Shame really as I don’t actually mind Leeds. Millwall and Leeds are proper unreconstructed football clubs with passionate support. I’d much rather go to Elland Road than the Highbury Library any day. So you think “consigning us to the dustbin of history” will solve hooliganism then? Sorry mate but there are more incidents in then glossy Premiership but they get airbrushed out. Can’t damage the brand can we?
See elsewhere for most of your juvenile “points” being effortlessly dealt with – because they’re bollocks. The article wasn’t about the game where one poor team beat another poor team in the first poor team’s Cup Final.
It’s sad that football invariably makes even intelligent, sane people descend into the kind of tribal point scoring seen in all of the above.
As a 4th generation Millwall fan, with a 5th generation daughter, I do not recognise the Millwall FC club thar Rob is talking about. The one I know is a focal point and force for good in one of the toughest parts of London, a warm club with a huge sense of community.
Where fans regularly work together to help raise money & provide voluntary support for as varied a causes as saving Lewisham A&E Hospital, Neil Harris’ Everyman Testicular Cancer Charity, Anti-Knife Crime initiatives pioneered by a staunch Millwall family in the Mizens, the Peckham Foodbank, a Children’s hospice…well I could go on and on.
Does Millwall football club also attract societies outcasts, hate filled and just plain stupid too? Of course. But are they representative of the everyday face of Millwall FC or a template for the majority of Millwall fans? Don’t be ludicrous.
We may be a small club, but even only 4,000 hate-filled ‘animals’ would pose quite a serious problem for the police – I’d imagine that Millwall home games would have to be policed by the army should your suggestion that a significant amount of Millwall fans (which is where I get the 4,000, i.e. 40% of our average support) are mindless animals out to be get other football fans.
The real problem Millwall face as a club is down to a combination of geography and history. London is the UK’s only major international city, and Millwall are it’s only truly inner-city side. The club first acquired a reputation as having a rough and ready crowd in the 1890s, when the dockers in the crowd settled disputes the old fashioned way. This stuck with the club right up until the docks finally closed in the 1970s. Whereby it had all ready inspired youngsters from the sprawling local housing estates to grab themselves some of the lime light that the kids from the Manchester, Birmingham, ahem Leeds housing estates were receiving as they roamed the country in huge mobs.
Of course The Den being in inner-city London and not much off being a hard goal kick from Fleet Street meant the bi-weekly disturbances just over the river could be reported on with much more vigour than the fisticuffs out in the sticks. Add in Millwall’s almost romantic association as being the ‘wrong part of London’, reflecting the London Borough of Southwark’s (a Millwall area) reputation as a lawless part of the city, which goes back to Medieval times, and it was almost too good to be true for sensation seeking hacks.
Next thing we know there’s a film crew from the BBC programme Panarama following around a group of fans, seen as mostly harmless, at Millwall matches. I’ll leave you to fill in the blanks, but it goes without saying that when the documentary the BBC had filmed (and edited) was shown Millwall’s name would forever be associated with the English disease of hooliganism.
Now a small club from the back streets off the Old Kent Road was a big deal in hooligan circles, and so on our travels we acted as a magnet for evey nutter in the local area to test themselves against the famous Millwall…and The Den became a battle ground for every hooligan group in the country to grab themselves a name.
However, Millwall are a dockers club, with a dockers mentality and it’s fair to say that certain elements of our support, well a lot of our support didn’t shy away from the challenge. Perhaps with the pinnacle coming with the Luton riot in 1985, finally cementing the name Millwall, in even non football fan’s minds, as the scum of football, a pariah to be loathed.
And that is the legacy as a club we are left with. Therefore it doesn’t surprise me that there are people out there that use Millwall as vehicle to peddle hate or as a venue to opt out of civilised society and social norms in order to abuse others. Indeed, given our geography, whereby the disenfranchised of inner-city London and diseffected of the south London suburbs and Kent fringes can pour in…especially when a club almost as tainted as us are in town.
Yet despite all of that baggage I sincerely believe the club are turning things around and all the good, decent people at the club are the ones being recognised as the true face of Millwall.
Indeed the Met felt that the club has earned enough good grace for this fixture to be played on a Saturday with a 3pm kick-off and no ticket restrictions. Possibly because they felt the only policing issues would be with a very small minority of people out to cause offence or trouble. And we are talking of numbers in the hundreds here – not a significant percentage of the home…because, as suggested, do you really believe the Met would have allowed this fixture to go ahead in the conditions it did if they were anticipating 3-5,000 trouble makers being out in force, let alone 11,000 odd?
I just wish you would take the time to attend a bread and butter Millwall game, or speak to local community figures about the club…or at the very, very least read either Micheal Calvin’s Family, Life, Death and Football, or No One Likes Us, Millwall fandom (a set text on some Psychology Uni courses) to gain a better understanding of my club and its good and bad points.
I ask you to do that as a seemingly intelligent person who went to such efforts to write your blog that has completely written us off.
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I’ve been to a couple and had bricks aimed at me both times. All the positives you raised are well and good – but irrelevant to the issues I raised. If some one throws a half-brick in another person’s face, it’s hardly mitigation to mention that the assailant gave money to fight testicular cancer, laudable as that may be in isolation. I’m getting quite a few obviously intelligent Millwall fans – and all they can do is spout on about these unlinked issues, without apologising for or even acknowledging the perennial problems. It’s a defensive attitude that just doesn’t help, in my view.
Rob, you’ve accused people of over simplification & yet that’s exactly what you’ve done to my post; that, or you have not fully comprehended my point. That’s understandable, it was a very long post.
Perhaps I should have been more concise. My point was the club & fans you describe are not the ones I revognise as a 4th generation fan of 30 years. And those things I pointed are what I most associate with Millwall.
It regretable that Leeds, as another club with an awful reputation, brings out the worse in Millwall (& the best, as we seem to win the home games), but a few tedious songs to wind Leeds fans up is no where near representative of Millwall FC & its community…in the same way a few point scoring tweets that offend you do not sum up over 40,000 people.
That’s why I asked you to try attending a Millwall game against a less controversial & disliked club than Leeds. Or read Calvin’s (a Watford supporting Sports writer’s book) about his year at the club.
You do concern me however, as I’ve spent all this time replying to you…yet your reply about having bricks thrown at you at Millwall games just does not add up. Are you implying that somehow a Millwall fan got into the away fan walkway & attacked you in front of police officers? Or that they attacked you at the heavily policed and CCTV watched London Bridge station or South Bermondsey station, or at Bermondsey or Surray Quays tube stations? Because that simply does not ring true. This makes wonder if you are a fantasist. Where was this attack? And when? As it couldn’t have been after the match, as Leeds fans are penned in & put on a special back to LB. Just doesn’t add up. Unless you were walking the streets of Bermondsey & someone spotted you were Leeds & were over the moon that they’d remembered to bring their brick with them (on two occasions)..?!
As for being defensive…I’d argue Millwall FC & fans are more aware & open than any club re the issues they face. Everton & Newcastle seem reluctant to deal with their racism issues & seemingly some Leeds fans are happy to throw stones in glass houses. And I’ve never heard Manchester United come out & condemn the largest hooligan group in the country…as it might affect sales of Red Devil slippers & the like.
I suggest you try & think of Millwall as being similar to an inner city comprehensive – there’s lots of good people, doing good things every day, for a mainly decent group of people…with a few bad eggs spoiling it for the rest. And Leeds are like a rival tough school turning up for a sport’s fixture.
Simplistic I know, but that’s what you seem to boil everyone’s reply down to anyway.
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I suggest that if you were at the game on Saturday you may have noted that it was only in the away end that the police had to intervene. This was inbetween chants from Leeds of ‘Jimmy Saville shagged your kids’. I was there and I heard it. So don’t call me a liar. I believe this makes your above comment in reply to Mfcfan null and void:
‘2) Bollocks. Glib, groundless nonsense. Just not true and a mark of desperation for you to suggest it is.’
Perhaps if you ever went to a game you would know what went on rather that commenting from your very big glass house.
You are obviously only here to provoke reaction (so congratulations, job done).
Jacqui – you’re a Millwall fan. Ergo, you ARE a liar. Simples.
Rob, can I say I genuinely thought you was semi serious based on your alleged asscociation with the CAB but having just seen your reply I have realised you are nothing more than a poor attention seeker. I am sure you are proud of the level of attention you have gained but I now realise you are a very sad individual. Having read all of the posts it is clear your sole purpose is to post the most provocative response you can to gain further attention. To all of you commenting on this thread, STOP, this man is nothing more than a very poor journalist who wishes to provoke comment so that he can cut and paste into a cheap rag to try and improve his credentials.
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You’re sounding a bit over-wrought and desperate Jacqui. Try to relax.
After reading this thoughtless article can we now officially proclaim rob Atkinson a bona fide troll?
I am a Millwall fan. I am neither an animal nor a I scum as you seem to think. I dont throw bricks and I was at wembley and did not fight or abuse anyone.45000 or so Millwall fans were at that game and a dozen have a scrap. So strange you latched onto that. I like the rivalry between Leeds and Millwall. Without these types of games football wouldnt be worth watching.
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So I’m not having a go at you. But check out for instance @CharlieRichMFC who has expended some few minutes of his miserable existence on researching the Twitter account of Ali Umit Demir, one of the Turkish murderers (who has admitted his part in the stabbings but who through the intricacies of the Turkish court system has hardly served any jail time.) Bright boy Charlie has eagerly followed Demir’s Twitter, and has tweeted details of the account to Leeds fans, the malicious intention again being to cause as much misery and pain as he possibly can. That’s just one cretin, but he is not alone, there are many – and they all seemed to be tweeting about Chris and Kev’s tragic murders yesterday, and all having a rollicking good time. That’s what provoked my article, and if you don’t like it I suggest you seek to address the cause rather than bleating at me.
I’ve also added the @CharlieRichMFC tweet to the end of the article – because it’s difficult to believe unless you see it that one warped and sick individual can be so gleefully evil.
But that’s no more representative of Millwall fans than Hitler was of all Germans.
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It’s one among many. Your objection is feeble and ridiculous.
It’s this brick thing that I think discredits him.
It simply does not add up that a Millwall fan just happened to walking around Bermondsey or New Cross et al with a brick ready to throw at a Leeds fan they had come upon by chance. Because that seems to be the suggestion, ie Rob parked up or travelled in on the train from the south & got off at New Cross…as that’s the only way he would have avoided travelling to the game via London Bridge, or using the equally heavily police Surrey Quays/Bermondsey tube stations.
And as I said in my earlier reply, there’s no way a Millwall fan would be able to walk around London Bridge or South Bermondsey stations with a brick & attack a Leeds fan without being arrested by the large number of police or picked up by the comprehensive CCTV coverage. And I very much doubt a Millwall fan would take the risk – unless they were mentally ill & therefore in need of help rather than condemnation.
Another explanation is that Rob went looking for trouble & found it.
After, he does claim it happened on two separate occasions.
It’s all very odd, as Rob you raise some interesting points; but it seems you’ve taken it too personally & are just ranting about us…and anything goes.
Don’t be so bloody silly. It’s hardly a unique experience for away fans to be bricked at Miwwwaww and yet you’re acting all incredulous you dim prat. Get real. I’ve been to away matches to both The Den and the New Den. Been bricked arriving and leaving at both places, going back as far as a 3-1 defeat sometime in the eighties. I’m quite clear in my recollections – as for you, you’ve made yourself seem even thicker than the average Miwwwaww apologist. Prick.
So my position is clear from the start, I’m a Millwall supporter in his mid 20s.
Admittedly the fact I’m putting finger to key in response to this piece, does open me up to claims that the article has served its purpose; to gain as many responses as possible.
For the alternative, to write an article showing fresh perspectives on an already extensively reported and critiqued issue, surely was not even part of the scope of this project. Or maybe it was?
If it was, then Rob I’m afraid that it has failed as miserably.
The deeper the reader gets in this article, the more they are engulfed in an ocean of predictable and statements such as “Millwall defies evolution, laughs at progress, dismisses a family atmosphere as “soft”. The ignorance with which someone of 52 years old is prepared to publish such obvious, unsubstantiated tripe in the public domain is actually quite humourous, on a par with the pathetic and nonsensical cack that swamps YouTube comments. That sentence alone is all one needs to realise that this article is economical on reasoning. If further proof was needed however, then the reader will get confirmation in the last sentence. The fact you had the flippance (or lack of awareness) to even italicise the last sentence in your text just goes to show how oblivious you are to the verbal diarrhoea you have so eloquently spouted.
And that brings me onto my next and final point.
You clearly can string a few words together. But why not push the boundaries a tad and try harder to find new angles on such topics? Replace the word “Millwall” with “Islam” in your piece and I think you would have had a Jihad taken out in your name before you could say the word “whippet”. I’d be interested to know if you tar other groups with the brushstrokes you seem to apply so liberally to Millwall. Anyone can write a few paragraphs of what you just did. Why not spend a day understanding more deeply why you believe Millwall to have such issues? You clearly have found a club in this corner of London that harbours a particular type of person. Why not bring Mrs and Miss A down to the capital, send them off to Oxford Street for an afternoon together while you get under the skin of this part of the world? Talk to local people as they go about their lives. Talk to the club. Talk to rivals of the club at Charlton which is only a few miles away. See what makes it tick and draw some more worthy conclusions from your findings.
It’s your blog, do what you like. But why not use this domain to report in a way that breaths new life into the topic? The shame is, it could have been something better, but you so obviously wasted it.
I hope you see this as not simply an attack on your blatant ignorance on this topic, but with some practical suggestions about how you can go about resolving them. I fear it will be in vain however, because your comment “you’re a Millwall fan. Ergo, you ARE a liar. Simples.” only shows you to be another baffoon with stereotypes so deeply-rooted that you’re probably a lost cause now.
“That’s what provoked my article, and if you don’t like it I suggest you seek to address the cause rather than bleating at me.”
The irony from you is suffocating. So how do you excuse your unashamedly predictable babblings? I saw nowhere in your piece that even flirted with the idea of finding answers and possible solutions based on any reason.
Pseudo-intellectual bollocks. It would seem that in any Millwall fan educated to O-level and above, defensiveness takes the form of patronising the perceived cause of that discomfort. I’ve not the slightest interest in informing myself of the social and sporting mores of South Bermondsey; my gripe is with those cretins who use Twitter as a medium to inflict pain and misery by taking such delight in the deaths of two Leeds fans in Turkey. And also with their brain-dead brethren who pour similar abuse from the stands. It’s a simple enough issue, right and wrong, and it happens to the greatest degree, with the most regularity at this one backward, grotty little football club. You can dress up your objections in whatever flowery crap you wish, it won’t obscure that central issue.
You’ve conveniently avoided my point to you and say all you wanted to do was bring the focus on Twitter. And yet your article is full of unrelated comments regarding the club. You also have a picture of the blokes who the police are looking for related to the Wembley incident, yet your article is about Twitter. Hugely misleading.
Pseudo-intellectual? Not once did I provide you with answers, I’m merely pointing you in the direction of reasoned analysis, for you to draw your own conclusions based on more varied considerations rather than relying on your own blatant bigotry.
The funny part of what you say is “it won’t obscure the central issue” but all you’ve said is it’s a grotty club with no logical arguments to support your claim to any worthy degree.
One of the other commenters had it right, you are obviously trolling. That commet about “you’re Millwall so that means you’re a liar” obviously shows how low you’ve stooped and unmasks you for the ignorant person you really are. For that reason, I’m out.
Don’t let the door slam you in the arse on the way, sonny.
Oh dear Robert we have sunk to a new low sink of debauchery.
“Jimmy Saville is your father” sang the Leeds end en masse making light of the perverts conquests on the poor children of our country, ” he’s one of your own ” came the witty and intelligent rebuttal . You really do need to be a bit more. Introspective. Maybe if that poor lad hadn’t wiped his backside with the Turkish flag he may still be alive. The replies ref. Istanbul are un called for but as you well know after 50 plus years of taunting Man Utd and more recently Liverpool fans you are very much marching together when it come to vile abuse.
We will not be reporting individuals support for the pervert to the police or taking pictures of the flare lighters in your stand no doubt there are other self righteous individuals amongst you support who have already done that, maybe it was you Robert.
By the way it should have been 5 – 0 and you now have the worst Leeds team I have ever seen in my 50 years of watching live football. I think you will find is the reason for your bile.
What a disgusting reply. You make my point for me. How very typical of Millwall scum.
More squealing from Miwwwaww fans desperately unhappy at the outing of their club and support as the lowest of the low. More protests at their inability to muddy the waters or throw in red herrings posing as Leeds fans. More anger at being sussed and hung out to dry.
Just remember this: Scum have no right of reply. Miwwwaww fans are scum, so I’m buttoning your lips for you. Like it or lump it. You know where the door is.
It’s good to be King.